Welcome
Welcome to <strong>Moshiach and Geulah</strong>.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so please, <a href="/profile.php?mode=register">join our community today</a>!

Does redemption depend on repentance?

A Torah forum for discussing all matters relating to Moshiach and the redemption.

Moderator: Isaac

Does redemption depend on repentance?

Postby emuna57 on Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:24 am

This is a very important question which is especially relevant to some of the fears that have arisen since we are so close to Geula. It will also provide an answer to those who are skeptical of the proximity of redemption based on what they perceive as a lack of observance by most Jewish people or the so called shortcomings of the orthodox.

The answer to this question is yes - redemption does depend on national Jewish repentance i.e. internal transformation will lead to the worlds external transformation BUT the repentance will come through a divine revelation in the world which will coincide with the revelation of Moshiach. The prerequisite for the Divine revelation which will spark this process has already been achieved.

How doe we know this?

In the Talmud there is a dispute whether redemption will come thorough repentance or not. Rabbi Eliezer holds it will while R' Yehoshua says the sufferings of exile will suffice (paraphrasing). After back and forth replies R' Yehoshua brings proof from Daniel that the exile has a set end date and then Rabbi Eliezer is silent. So it seems from this discussion that Rabbi Yehoshua's opinion is dominant. On the other hand the Rambam clearly rules the redemption depends completely on repentance! The Rambam even writes "The Torah Guarantees that in the end the Jewish people will repent and will immediately be redeemed". This ruling is puzzling since it implies from the Talmud the opposite and at best its unclear. Another problem is that the masters of Chassidic thought held that the redemption will occur in Nissan as opposed to the opinion that holds it will come in Tishrei. A Nissan redemption means - a redemption prompted by a revelation from G-d (like passover) , while a Tishrei redemption is one that would be prompted by mans actions. How could the masters of Chassidic thought determine it will be a Divinely inspired redemption (Nissan) when the Rambam rules it all depends of mans repentance?

The Rebbe explains in the Ma'amer Hachodesh Haze that both are true. There will be a great loving divine revelation (Moshiach) which will reveal the essential bond between the Jewish people and G-d. The recognition/revelation of this bond will draw all Jewish people back to their faith and kick off the redemption. This ultimate return will be of a higher quality than the passover redemption since this time we will be ready vessels for it , as opposed to passover when they had to "rush out" of exile. The previous Rebbe explains in the Ma'amer "a redeemer will come to zion" that this is what it means when it says "man and man will give birth" - that even though it will be a "male" revelation i.e. from G-d , there will still be birth - complete inner transformation.

There is a still a question , the Rebbe stated many times that Teshuva , repentance has been done. This statement of the Rebbe was based on the declaration of the previous Rebbe that WW2 was part of the birth pangs of Moshiach and after that he declared "right away to repentance , right away to redemption". So how does the Rebbe's assurance that repentance is completed fit in? In short there are two stages of repentance. The previous Rebbe writes in the Ma'amer " and a redeemer will come to Zion" that there will be two stages of return one which will take place before the Great shofar will sound and one which will take place after the great shofar. The second one will cause all Jewish people to have an inner transformation while for many the first one may not seem to affect. The Rebbe's revelation is that we have completed the Teshuva, repentance, needed for the final revelation and nothing at all stands in its way.

There is alot more supportive information for this - and hopefully i will work on this a bit more for greater clarity.

The lesson is simply the following

a) We all need to return to Hashem , and we will - but it is nothing to be scared of and Hashem will soon help us all get there with great loving kindness by revealing Moshiach.

b) anyone who says redemption isn't happening because we havent done enough repentance in a negative way has it backward.

Have an easy fast
emuna57
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:24 pm


Re: Does redemption depend on repentance?

Postby Jean-Marie Rondeau on Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:27 am

I am convince that redemption without great destruction is truly dependent on the Jewish people prayers to Hashem for a much more compassionate world.

For that, we must pray from the heart for all nations, for all leaders of the world. Our compassion we must exercise for each member of the human race.

We do honor to God when we pray from the heart. Especially when our prayers are for others and we seek no reward for ourselves.

And God answers in kind. I know that for a fact. By experience.

Also many a person have testified over time benefiting a miracle cure, etc, after praying fervently for the welfare of another person in need.

I was reading a site earlier where it was suggested that we must pray fervently for those who seek change in Iran to succeed for they would bring about great change in Islam.
If not it would bring to power the One who would bring great destruction by a great international war in the Middle East.
I agree with this proposition.

Jean-Marie Rondeau
God & Social justice is a necessity for peace!
Jean-Marie Rondeau
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:54 am
Location: Cantley. Quebec. Canada

Re: Does redemption depend on repentance?

Postby yehuda on Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:57 am

JMR, with all due respect to you, isn't the chapter about prayer in the various explanatory websites and
booklets about the 7 Noahide Laws that you told us you live by clear enough ?
Why do you need the Jews to pray for you and 'the nations' ?
Pray to Go-d only.
We Jews know exactly what to pray for. Thanks anyway.
yehuda
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:35 pm

Re: Does redemption depend on repentance?

Postby Jean-Marie Rondeau on Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:08 pm

Simply because the Jews are the prime targets of the extremists of Islam and of all those who feel left out of the blessing of life.

And you are the first to suffer the consequences.

We all have to pray for the nations no matter what race colour or creed we belong. I know this is also in your prayer books and tradition.

I mean no harm, insult, etc.

You know, my wife has these dreams about the Jewish people because she prays fervently for the Jews, for an end to anti-semitism and so on.

In my mind, if God answers the prayers of two innocents like my wife and I, how much more so the prayers of his chosen people.

Jean Marie Rondeau
God & Social justice is a necessity for peace!
Jean-Marie Rondeau
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:54 am
Location: Cantley. Quebec. Canada

Re: Does redemption depend on repentance?

Postby yehuda on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:30 pm

Believers only fear Go-d.
yehuda
 
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:35 pm

Re: Does redemption depend on repentance?

Postby Jean-Marie Rondeau on Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:02 am

For me it is a question of serving the Creator by caring for all his creation and in the process help all our fellow man.

Remembering the story of the deluge and Noah saying to God: did you have to flood the whole earth? And God answering why is it you did not say anything before the flood?
In my private prayers to God the other night I ask Him: Do you really want this predicted war with Iran with the terrible weapons of today and the massive destruction it would bring?
Also the land in the Middle East would probably be poisoned for hundreds if not thousands of Year? Like around Chernobyl!
Why not instead help those who seek an end to the rule of their fanatic tyrants? Like Hamman, why not make the President of Iran answer in the laws of Iran for his false sayings against the Jews?

In the end God will do what He considers best.

At least I did not remain silent when so many predict , even promote, a great war of destruction.

I have no doubt the Almighty expects that much from us.

Jean-Marie Rondeau
God & Social justice is a necessity for peace!
Jean-Marie Rondeau
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:54 am
Location: Cantley. Quebec. Canada

Re: Does redemption depend on repentance?

Postby Isaac on Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:23 pm

Speaking of the Noahide laws, this is very informative and interesting, from R' Yitzchak Ginsburgh: http://www.inner.org/nonjews/intro.htm
A neshoma descends to this world world for 70-80 years, to do a material favor for a Jew and especially a spiritual favor. (Baal Shem Tov, brought in Hayom Yom)
User avatar
Isaac
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:47 pm

Re: Does redemption depend on repentance?

Postby emuna57 on Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:45 pm

to turn to G-d and move higher than the past. Charata a'l ha'aver l'kabala a'l ha'asid, to regret the past and make commitment for the future. To internally transform ,each man and women at his level , for even the Tzaddik will turn when Moshiach arrives.
emuna57
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:24 pm

Re: Does redemption depend on repentance?

Postby emuna57 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:16 am

no man is perfect and certainly not before Hashem. This is not something to dwell on for dwelling on the negative is a tool of the yetzer but is it not our imperfection which propels us further with joy? If you cannot feel regret over your imperfections before Hashem I would not dwell on that either , but still one must strive to always increase/be better for stagnation is also a tool of the yetzer. Moshiach's revelation will light the torch of our souls and we will all strive to move higher and connect with G-d, our flaming source.
emuna57
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:24 pm


Return to Moshiach and Geulah

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests